Talking to a Moderate Christian
Debating someone right now, if anyone wants to lend a hand feel free to do so.
You said the following i quote
'Well as for simple errors, jesus was not god in the flesh and never claimed to be in any of the synoptic bibles. It was centuries later when the church established the trinitarian view that Jesus, god and the holy ghost are one entity'
Let us see what the bible has to say about your quote:
1. Christ acts with all the prerogatives of deity
A prerogative of God is a right or privilege exclusive to Himself. The following divine prerogatives are attributed to Christ in scripture, thus providing further proof of His deity:
- He forgives sin (Psa 85:2, Matt 9:2-8, Luke 7:47). Christ’s action in forgiving sinners was not on the same level as when a person who has been wronged says “I forgive you” to his adversary. Since all sin is against God, for Christ to step into the scene and claim to forgive the wrongs someone has committed against God is to claim equality with God.
- He raises Himself from the dead (John 2:19, 10:18).
- He has been appointed the judge of all (John 5:22, Acts 17:31)
- He speaks with divine authority (Matt 7:28-29). Christ did not quote other Rabbis as His authority nor does the Bible ever state, “The word of the Lord came to Jesus.” Rather what one sees is the Old Testament “Thus saith the Lord” replaced with the New Testament words of Jesus “But I say unto you.” (Matt 5:22, 5:28, 5:32, 5:34, 5:44, 11:22, 11:24, 12:6, 12:36, 17:12, 26:29)
2. Christ claims to be God
In the Gospel of John seven people attest to the deity of Christ.
- John Baptist (1:34)
- Nathanael (1:49)
- Peter (6:69)
- Martha (11:27)
- Thomas (20:28)
- Apostle John (20:31)
- The Lord (5:17, 5:23, 8:58, 10:30, 10:36, 14:9)
The seventh in the list here is the Lord Jesus Himself, which contradicts the claim of those who say that Jesus never said He was God. C.S. Lewis comments: “One attempt consists in saying that the man [Jesus] did not really say these things, but that His followers exaggerated the story, and so the legend grew up that He had said them. This is difficult because His followers were all Jews. That is, they belonged to that nation which was of all others most convinced that there was only one God – that there could not possibly be another. It is very odd that this horrible invention about a religious leader should grow up among the one people in the whole world least likely to make such a mistake. On the contrary, we get the impression that none of His immediate followers…embraced the doctrine at all easily.”
3. Christ accepted divine worship
Who receives and is worthy of worship is a ‘big issue’ in the Bible. The following people refused to be worshipped:
1. Paul (Acts 14:8-15)
2. Peter (Acts 10:25-26)
3. An angel (Rev 22:8-9)
Jesus Himself clearly stated that only God must be worshipped (Matt 4:10, Luke 4:8) yet repeatedly allowed men to worship him (Matt 14:33, 28:9, John 20:28-29). This is powerful evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. In another of those amazing parallels, Jehovah in the Old Testament says that every knee shall bow to Him (Isa 45:23). The New Testament then states that every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus (Phil 2:10). In Heb 1:6 the Father says of Christ “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
4. Direct proof texts
The Bible categorically spells out the fact that Jesus is God again and again in the most uncertain terms in the following eleven proof texts:
1. John 1:1
“The Word was God.”
The New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses has attempted to obscure this plain statement by translating it “The Word was a god”. They claim the authority to do this on the basis of the fact that the definite article ‘the’ does not appear before the word for ‘God’ in the text. Professor Donald MacLeod comments:
“By omitting the definite article before God (theos) John is not (as Jehovah’s Witnesses and others claim) reducing his statement to the impossible level of ‘the word was a god’. He is avoiding a form of language which would have meant either ‘the word was the Father’ or ‘the Word was the godhead’. Both of these propositions would have been erroneous. John’s problem was that he had to assert the deity of the Son without prejudice to the deity of the Father and he does this, negatively by omitting the article and, positively, by going on to state, ‘The Word was with God’. The Word was not the Father. Not was the Word the only person of the godhead. The Word was God with God ” (Donald MacLeod, From Glory to Golgotha p. 140-141).
The New World Translation gives the game away further down John chapter 1 in verse 18. Here again the definite article is missing in the Greek original but nevertheless the NWT still says “No one has seen God at any time.” Clearly their tampering with verse 1 was not due to any consideration of Greek scholarship but rather to the bias of a deity denying cult.
2. Isaiah 7:14, Matt 1:23
“Emmanuel…God with us.”
At His birth the lovely name Emmanuel was pronounced over Christ. It means ‘God with us’. Literally in Greek Matt 1:23 says “The God with us.” The definite article is present in reference to Christ as God, which is the final nail in the coffin of the Watchtower’s faulty argument concerning the missing definite article in John 1:1. The same is true of the famous statement of Thomas in John 20:28, which translated literally reads, “The Lord of me and the God of me”, the definite article being present twice in his confession.
3. Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
Note the unambiguous reference to Christ as ‘the mighty God’.
4. John 5:18
“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.”
See the comments above under ‘His Sonship’.
5. John 8:58
“Before Abraham was: I am.”
This is more than a claim to pre-existence, where the imperfect tense would have sufficed. This is a claim to eternal existence and self-existence. The use by the Lord Jesus of the divine title the ‘I am’ (Exod 3:14) is a high claim to deity.
6. John 10:30
“I and My Father are one.”
The word ‘one’ here is in the neuter gender. It refers to a unity of essence between the Father and the Son that is spiritual, intimate and unbreakable. Attempts to interpret it to mean ‘one in purpose’ are misguided, as an examination of the violent reaction of the Jews in passage shows. John 17:11 and 21 states that there’s a similarity between Christians’ union with each other in the body of Christ and the unity of the godhead, but not a total sameness. The sameness of nature and essence of the Father and the Son is expressed in the use of the following words in the Bible:
Reference Greek Translation Meaning
a. John 1 logos The Word of God The personal manifestation of deity
b. Colossians 1 eikon The Image of God The perfect expression of God
c. Colossians 2 theotes Godhead The essence and nature of God
d. Philippians 1 morphe The form of God The exact character of God
e. Hebrews 1 charakter The express image The impress of God’s substance and essence bearing exact similarity in every way.
0
7. John 14:9
“He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”
In that Christ is the word of God, the image of God, exists in the form of God and is the express image of His person, He can rightfully say “To see Me is to see the Father.”
8. Colossians 2:9
“For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
Late in the first century AD false teachers called Docetists taught that while Jesus appeared human, He was really only divine (Docetism is from the Greek verb dokeo, to seem). They taught that the ‘divine Christ’ descended on Jesus at His baptism and left before the cross. This later developed into full-blown Gnosticism which flourished in Egypt in the second and third centuries. This is the background of the so-called ‘Gospels’ of Thomas, Mary, Philip and Judas, documents written by those who denied that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. These Gnostics spoke much about ‘fullness’ and held a belief in a plethora of emanations or divine beings on an ascending scale. Where did Christ fit into this scheme? He was displaced from His true status as the Word who became flesh. Paul points out that all the fullness that the Gnostics believed existed across all the many divine emanations actually dwelt bodily in Christ! Furthermore the New Testament teaches that “all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” dwell in Christ (Col 2:3). He is also spoken of as being “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
So, the totality of the power and attributes of deity – the fullness – dwells in Christ bodily. Two words are of particular interest in Colossians 2:9. Firstly, the word ‘dwelleth’ (Gk. Katoikeo) means to reside permanently. This undoes the error of the Docetists. Secondly, the word Godhead (Gk. Theotes) refers to the essence and nature of God. It is not to be confused with the similar word translated Godhead (in the KJV) in Romans 1:20 (Gk. Theiotes). This refers to the divine perfections and attributes of Divinity.
9. 1 Timothy 3:16
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh.”
The confession of the city of Ephesus where Timothy lived was, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians” (Acts 19:28). Paul here states that the Church’s confession is that “Wonderful is revelation of the godly Christian life…God was manifest in the flesh.” Though there is some controversy as to the retention or omission of the word ‘God’ in this passage, the weight of evidence is clearly on the side of the manuscripts that read ‘theos’.
10. Hebrews 1:8
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.”
This mighty testimony to the deity of Christ reveals the Father calling the Son ‘God’.
11. 2 Peter 1:1 (NKJV)
“The righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
The Greek grammar used in this verse demands that one person be meant, not two. It clearly states that Jesus is God.
I realize some of these bible verses are from the epistles however there are plenty of gospel verses and even verses from the old testiment. I hope you are overwhelmed by the proof texts that according to the bible that Jesus is God. I will deal with his moral perfections and other such things you have asked later on this week.
part 2
This is a article by daniel wallace from Dallas theological seminary. Just read the 2nd part of the article which is entitled Broader Arguments for an Early Date of John’s Gospel
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5148
Do you have any proof of Johns Gospel being much later?
And please no more john armstrong the guys a tool. He said in one of his videos the Jesus Christ didnt exisit. This is complete bogus considering every decent Athiest i've listened to who is intellectual have adminted Jesus has exsited. Plus Jospheous who wasnt a christian at the time of Jesus recorded that Jesus was a real man. Armstrong is not professional and doesnt do a good job of sourcing info. He seems to just' know' this stuff without backing up his material.
One of the first things that leaps out at me is that he responds to your charge that Jesus never claimed to be God in any of the synoptic Gospels by pointing out what the Gospel of John says. Does he even understand the term "synoptic" here? You may want to clarify that this term refers to the first three Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke.
The closest he comes to providing a counter-argument was Matthew's misquote of Isaiah 7:14. Here Isaiah, not Matthew, is describing some child born as being named "Immanuel". This passage refers to a child to be born in the time of Isaiah. It in no way, shape or form could be considered a prophecy about Jesus. Christians often claim that Is 7:14 was a "duel prophecy", referring both to events of Isaiah's time and of Jesus' time. When I pressed on Christian to cite me chapter and verse that justifies this interpratation, he said "The Holy Spirit" tells him it's so.
Well, I can't argue with that "logic".
In any event, Matthew's misquote of Isaiah 7:14 is the best he can offer?
The parts in Matthew where Jesus "accepts worship", Matthew 14:33, it's as the SON OF GOD, not God incarnate. Inherent in Christianity is this idea that Jesus was the intercessor between God and humanity. Of course, this does contradict Jewish theology but remember that Christianity was an amalgamation of Judaism and Paganism. It's because of this blending that they had to come up with Trinitarian theology in the first place.
I have an entire section of chapter 6 dedicated to this very topic: http://www.godvsthebible.com/node/12#jesusgod
Long story made short, Jesus throughout the synoptic Gospels talks of God in the third person, to God in the second person and God does likewise to Jesus.
If you're looking for a more in-depth analysis of the Gospel of John: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/john.htm
And if I were a Christian, I would be embaressed by the forgery of Josephus' work. I would certainly not tout it as "proof" that the godman existed. Even the sleazest of Christian apologists admit that his Antiquities of the Jews was interpolated by early Christians. That the Christians can't seem to let go of this shred really indicates their desperation.
I have no idea about his charge that I don't do a good job of "sourcing info". My online book has hundreds of footnotes.
"Christians often claim that Is 7:14 was a "duel prophecy", referring
both to events of Isaiah's time and of Jesus' time. When I pressed on
Christian to cite me chapter and verse that justifies this
interpratation, he said "The Holy Spirit" tells him it's so."
What about standard Jewish exegical practice.There are instances in Jewish apocyrphal literature where this prophecy is applied to the messiah also.
"The parts in Matthew where Jesus "accepts worship", Matthew 14:33, it's as the SON OF GOD, not God incarnate."
They are monotheistic Jews-they only worship God-not his prophets.
"Inherent in Christianity is this idea that Jesus was the intercessor
between God and humanity. Of course, this does contradict Jewish
theology"
i think this evolved out of the logos concept(Philo write about this a lot) where God's word is identified with God-and the mediator between man and God- co-eternal and co-substantial and part of the God-head.The early Christians began to identify Jesus with Logos (John 1:1)
"Judaism and Paganism. It's because of this blending that they had to come up with Trinitarian theology in the first place. "
Nope. I mean the first indication of Trinitarianism comes from the old Wisdom /Logos concept in the letters of the early church. Logos is Hellenised but I don't think it is totally pagan.
"Jesus throughout the synoptic Gospels talks of God in the third person,
to God in the second person and God does likewise to Jesus."
I have a feeling that you spend too much time on those Jehovah's Witness sites.
I agree-Jesus is a separate person from God the father.That's what the orthodox trinity says.
"When a bunch of screwballs think I'm a screwball, I must be doing something right"
-John Armstrong proudly receiving his screwball award
Thanks, just wondering what kind of education do you have?
If you're self taught that's cool too, there have been many successful people who just did the work they do at schools of their own volition.
I'm self-taught. I've just read everything I can get my hands on.
I gave him your thing on polygamy in the bible, here's his response.
As I said, please know the Bible before you start making claims. The 10 virgins were not to be married to that bridegroom, there were effectively "bridesmaids" from the way I understand old Jewish marriage customs. Plus:
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife...." 1 Timothy 3:2
I am also neither a Jew, nor a person wishing to live under 4000 year old Jewish laws (Not that the age of the laws really has anything to do with it). I am a follower of Jesus Christ.
If Marcionite Christianity had won out, there would be a lot fewer contradictions. That branch of proto-Christianity wanted to ditch the OT along with Yahweh. Unfortunately for Christianity, the Trinitarians won out, largely due to the need to an appeal to antiquity. The Romans didn't care much for new religions. If you're religion was so new, how could it be true? Why didn't anyone know of it before? For Christianity to be accepted, they needed the OT with the authority of tradition that it provided.
The "follower of Jesus Christ" might want to re-read Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus is pretty clear here that the old laws aren't to be discarded. He may not wish to "live under 4000 year old laws" but Jesus says he won't get to Heaven otherwise.
That passage in Matthew 5 precisely PROVES my point. Jesus did NOT come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (complete) it. It was what it was for its time, but Jesus' time is new. It was for the Jews, I am not a Jew.
Heaven is NOT obtained by keeping God's commandments. See my video "What's Up With Christians?" if you really want to know what God requires for entrance into heaven.
watch?v=aa_wMoAw17w
Back in the Day, I wanted to be a preacher. Sure, I had faith, but--to be honest--the main appeal was that I'd only have to work one day a week. I majored in Bible for one semester at Abilene Christian University in Texas and lost my faith. It really put a dent in my career plans.
If you read the Gospels in the order scholars think they were written in, Jesus grows more divine in each one. John, the last one, believed to be put to papyrus around 90 a.d., was the whopper. It starts with the claim that Jesus existed in the beginning and that he was God. The miracles get progressively more impressive as the tale unfolds.
What I believed happend is that the Jewish sect led by Jesus was hijacked by a helenistic (greek-speaking)Jew now known as Saint Paul and then bastardized beyond recognition. Neither ancient nor modern Jews thought the Messiah would be divine. The central doctrine of Judaism is monotheism, the Shama Isael. ("Hear, oh Israel, the Lord, Our G-d, the Lord is One"). I think Jesus existed, may have thought he was the messiah, but never claimed to be divine. He probably was a hypnotist or some other kind of carnival magician as well as a religious reformer.
The greeks and the Romans deified people all the time. Paul was a Roman Citizen. The gospels all have a recognizable pro-roman, anti-Jewish bias. The religion that evolved into Christianity was the product of Greco-Roman pantheism and Judaism, which itself evolved from a proto-zoroastrianism and other regional superstitions.
The cult of the saints replaced the pantheon, Yahweh or Jahovah replaced Zeus or Jupiter. The Jewish sect of the Sadducees (the conservatives) didn't believe in heaven, hell or angels. The Sudducees also cooperated with the Roman occupiers and their puppet king Herod. All modern Jewish denominations; Orthodox, conservative, reform, Lubavicher, Hassidim--sprang out of the Pharisees, of which our favorite carpenter from Nazareth belonged. Many of Jesus' teachings originated with a Rabbi Hillel centuries earlier. It was the Sadducee court the Sanhedron that condemned the Pharasee Jesus befor Roman Governor Pilatus executed him.
The John the baptist story is a blatant rip-off of the old testament story of Elija. with plot elements of Jeremiah (another prophet) thrown in.
The first five books of the old Testament (Pentatuch) are credited to Moses, but were likely handed down in oral tradition and finally written down during Babylonian Captivity. They were originally written in ancient Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Greek, before being further corrupted when translated into latin. When anyone claims that scripture is infallible, ask which version, which translation.
as near as i can tell ,christ is an invention .was he god ,the son of god ,an angel ,all three ?...nope ,none of the above ,apparently he wasnt even a jewish carpenter . except in the minds of some men who lived many decades after the fact ,it seems there was no jesus "when jesus walked ".
if there WAS a jesus walking around in 30 ad doing all that kool jesus stuff ,he could not have escaped notice . he would have to be a little bit famous and have some supporters and perhaps a few DETRACTORS . certainly officials of that time would have to take a stance on this guy one way or another .PEOPLE would have opinions .he would be NEWSWORTHY .there was at that time ,the written word .jesus lived in a time when SOME people could read and write .romans ,jews ,greeks and egyptians were recording events .a calander existed ,paper and ink were not unknown .
in 25 ad ,in 30 ad ,in 44 ad ,in 52 ad in 67 ad, events were recorded ,trade happined ,taxes were collected , roman troops marched and kicked ass as needed .where was jesus ? apparently , jesus not only wasnt walking on any water ,he wasnt even walking on regular old dirt ...
NO ONE anywhere , heard anything of this jesus fella,, the holy land just wasnt very holy 'WHEN JESUS WALKED " ...now it is true , that some 50 or 60 years after his death ,a few guys , then in their thirtys started remembering all kinds of kool things they did when they hung out with JC .but of course their recollections are kinda muddled ,contradictory and foggy because , after all ,they were born a few generations after the alleged cross nailing event .
herod actually lived , im sure he would be suprised by all the bad press he got on the baby killing thing ."BABYS ! , VOT BABYS , IM KILLING ? " he would lament. poor old pontious pilot was running a country full of angry subjegated jews ,he had to nail up a few neredo-wells from time to time ,i think he woulda remembered if god started yellin and turned the day to night , not to mention a bunch of dead yids runnin amok in broad er ..day-nightlight .of course back when i was young ...stuff like this did actually happin .
like for instance ,i used to pal arround with ike ,omar bradley and george patton when we were all plebes at west point .man ...i could tell you some great stories of our hardships and fubars up on the hudson river school for boys ,back in 1914 .what me ? why yes, im tellin you the gospel truth ,though i was born in 55 , i remember 1917 like it was yesterday .but as i was sayin , see... there was this time when me ,georgie and brad was on a three day pass down in old new york , we had crashed this society bash down on fifth avenue ya see....we were in uniform , bright shiney second leutenants and just about to ship out to france , even ol brad practically had to beat the girls away with a stick ...so its us three and 72 lovely gibson girls ,virgins all .and damned if we didnt miss the last ferry boat to staten island .
well along comes this young swell dressed to nines in tux and tails ,wearin a pince nez and smokin a cigarette in a long fancey holder .tall fella , NY blueblood named franklin delanoe roosevelt . he tells us "take hold of his tails" .and i swear by the baby jesus , we ..all twelve of us ...just up and walked across the east river right over to fort jay . then patton notices we are about down to our last bottle of bourbon .."
oh yea of little faith "says young FDR .and you know what he done next ? thats right ..and im here to testify .oh ,and then ike returns from delmonicos with 12 peperoni pizzas on his majical flyin horse and just in time cause boy ,we were hungry by then , walkin on choppy flood tide river water in the dark of night aint as easy as you might think .especially when each of us is staggerin under a case load of johnny walker red label . then we relize we got 72 hungry sloe eyed debutants to feed and we only have 12 pizzas ,what are we to do we lament ...well franklin gives us a look then whacks our heads together like the three stooges ...and he tells the girls "we have nothing to fear but fear itself " and then he says "give me those goddamn pizzas , you dolts ...needless to say ,we had plenty of whiskey and pizza .
next week ...ill tell you bout the time me and ike got surrounded by twelve battalions of pissed off huns in the argone woods and had nothin left to fight with but the jawbone of a army mule .the kaisers army never really did recover from the losses they suffered that day ...oh the humanity ...the horror ...
and by the way , you know all these stories are absolutly true because they happened a really ,really long time ago .AND more importantly they have been written down in a very thick book with gold embossed letters on a black leather cover ,and ...you know we won that war , therefor , god was on our side and helped with proofreading and such .but not so much with spelling .